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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 13 2013, 01:03 AM (2,371 Views) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Jan 13 2013, 01:03 AM Post #1 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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You know I can't resist it. So a good source of crunching for gaps: Goku vs Vegeta (Saiyan Saga). We got your memetic "Over (8)000!" Goku, placing him at 8 000 to 8 500. We have Vegeta at 18 000. So, using Kaio-Ken multiplication, we get these two lists, with their power levels being anywhere between the two. Goku: 8 000 Goku Kaio-Ken × 2: 16 000 Goku Kaio-Ken × 3: 24 000 Goku Kaio-Ken × 4: 32 000 Vegeta: 18 000 Goku: 8 500 Goku Kaio-Ken × 2: 17 000 Goku Kaio-Ken × 3: 25 500 Goku Kaio-Ken × 4: 34 000 Vegeta: 18 000 Now, as for Kaio-Ken × 2 Goku, the Narrator and Goku state that he still can't keep up with Vegeta. Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1 Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!" Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P13.5-6, P14.2 Goku: “*****…!! His power and speed… [ ] I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2. [ ] I don’t care if my body breaks or I die! I’ve gotta up the Kaio-Ken to x3!!” So, if you use Goku's lowest possible KK × 2 PL, the gap between the two is significantly below 1.125×, in that Vegeta has not powered up to 18 000 yet, and when he does, it's stated that he powered up tremendously. Judging from the pretty short fight, we get Goku surprising Vegeta and getting a few hits on him, before Vegeta rebounds and kicks Goku, getting serious, after which Goku powers down. Using a 5% gap, Vegeta would be at 16 800 before powering up, and would go up in power 7%. If you have Goku at 8 500, Vegeta would be at 17 850, and would negliglibly go up (.008%) when transforming. The gaps are really tight (as what's implied is 16 000 < Vegeta [pre power-up] <<< 18 000), but it can work for this instance. If you want to veer off topic a little to explain this, his mighty display of power could be explained as some adverse, unintentional ki control in that he hasn't gone full power in a while/isn't quite skilled enough at ki control to not power up without a big fuss. Especially when power levels get millions of times his without the same effects, it can be temporarily discarded and the shock at his ki could more just be what he's doing with his ki (destroying the landscape). Now, we have the Kamehameha/Gyarikku-Ho struggle. Clearly, the Gyarikku-Ho amplifies Vegeta's power quite a bit, as it can keep up with Goku's Kaio-Ken × 3 KHH, and it's only when Goku goes KK × 4 that he gets blasted away. Now maybe this is just a point of speculation, but I think that since the Kaio-Ken already has Goku beyond his limits, the KHH doesn't amplify his power anymore. This literally doesn't change anything but Vegeta's Gyarikku-Ho amplification PL, as the gaps remain the same. So, since Vegeta's Gyarikku-Ho is even with KK × 3 Goku, but gets blown away by the KK × 4, the gap 24 000/18 000 (or just 4/3) is a clear stomp. Obliteration. It's ~1.3×. Now, Dodoria vs Vegeta. Chapter: 258 (DBZ 64), P1.1 Vegeta: “I killed Dodoria!! Dodoria, so proud of his tremendous strength!! And it was easy!! Heh… My new abilities surprise even me… The battle on Earth wasn’t a waste at all.” Vegeta just effortlessly stomped Kyui before with the exact same gap mentioned (24 000 to 18 000), but is much more proud of taking on Dodoria, clearly pointing to Dodoria being significantly above Kyui (plus the "tremendous strength" comment). I myself like to put Dodoria at 20 000, as I think it makes the most sense. Going by thousands, and having Dodoria below Vegeta's 24 000, he only has a few possible levels: 19 000 20 000 21 000 22 000 23 000 If Dodoria's just at 19k, he's 105% of Kyui, a really small gap, and it puts the clear win gap at 126% of the opponent. This can be discarded. At 20k, he's 111% of Kyui, close enough to that 113% gap that Dodoria does have the noticebale upperhand against Kyui. It puts the clear win gap at 120%. At 21k, he's 116% of Kyui, giving him a really clear upperhand, and the clear win gap is 114%, which is far far too close to the already established 113% that means you have a clear upperhand, and the gap only gets smaller fron there on out, leaving 20k as the most sensible one. Now, we get into the Monster Zarbon/Vegeta cluster*****. First, we have this chain of powers shown by fights: Dodoria < Zarbon << Vegeta 24 000 <<< Monster Zarbon << Vegeta 30 000 Zarbon gives Vegeta more trouble than Dodoria does, and it just makes sense that since he does fight Vegeta long after Dodoria's gone, he's stronger. Now, we would say Zarbon has the noticeable advantage over Dodoria -- as shown in how much better Zarbon fares against Vegeta. 21 000 puts him too close to Dodoria, 23 000 to close to Vegeta, so 22 000 is the most sensible option. Zarbon is then about 109% of Dodoria (noticeable advantage), and Vegeta is also 109% of Zarbon. Now, this is where the gaps get really tight, which is why I'd like to entertain the notion that until about 110%, skill is half the battle. Which is why we get Vegeta (post-zenkai) being able to tool Monster Zarbon when numerically, he shouldn't be able to. Monster Zarbon pretty cut and dry obliterates Vegeta. 25k is too close, 26k too close, 27k plausible (clear upperhand), 28k plausible, 29k is too close to Vegeta's 30k post zenkai. So it's narrowed down to 27-28k. If Monster Zarbon is at 27 000, he is 113% of Vegeta's power, which doesn't quite fit. It does put Vegeta after the beating at 111% of him also, which is kinda close as well. If he's at 28 000, he's 117% of Vegeta's power, which fits. Vegeta after the zenkai is ~107% of Zarbon's power, which is tough to fit, but going over the fight, and using that theory of fighting skill becoming more irrelevant after 110%, it works. Vegeta just blitzes Monster Zarbon, with a straight and speedy and to the point fighting style that barely gives Zarbon time to respond. When it's all said and done, Zarbon's armor is all messed up, but he's still ready to go. There's also Vegeta resorting to a low blow, the good old sand-in-the-eye. So it does work, with some minimalist gaps. Then we get to the Ginyu Force, where numbers become a bit sparser. Here we run into an odd inconsistency that I hope for the most part can be disregarded: Chapter: 275 (DBZ 81), P4.2 Context: Vegeta powers up to fight Recoom. Jheese: "Hey, hey, Vegeta's battle power has risen up close to 20,000!" [original line] Jheese: "Hey, hey, Vegeta's battle power has risen up close to 30,000!" [Kanzenban line] Vegeta should already be far, far further than 'close to 20,000' at this point. This might bring up some weird canon debate, but it is an inconsistency, and it is fixed/retconned in the Kanzenban. If anything, it's more canon than the anime :P . So Reacoom does toy with Vegeta for a pretty damn long time. Context: Vegeta attacked Recoom all out, but it had little effect. Gohan: “H-he hardly took any damage…” Chapter: 276 (DBZ 82), P13.2 Vegeta: “Th…that rotten monster…Da-dammit…To think that he’d be so strong…I’m being treated…just like a baby…” Which can be likened to Vegeta/Kyui, the toying gap: 1.33×. This puts Reacoom at 40 000. Now, Goku comes in with the highest seen power level there. Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P11.1-3 Ginyu: "In my estimation, his ability looks like it's about 60,000." Jheese: "Six... 60,000!? H-he's a Saiyan!! Whoever heard of a Saiyan at 60,000...?!!" Ginyu: “It’s not impossible. He could be like us, a super-gifted warrior, born as a mutant…Looks like this will be an unprecedentedly entertaining battle…I never thought the time would come for me to show my true power.” Goku, suppressed to ~60k, moves so fast that Reacoom and the two other Ginyus can't see him. He trashes Reacoom so severely it's embarrassing. This also fits perfectly with Kiosko's gap, of 150% means the opponent can barely see you. By that point, the opponent's doomed barring sudden hax techniques. So more or less:
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 05:08 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 01:10 AM Post #2 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1 Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!" ^That'd be before Vegeta powers up to 18,000. I skimmed your post so I'm unsure if it'll affect anything, but you should consider it. |
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| Goddess Ultimecia | Jan 13 2013, 01:10 AM Post #3 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I agree with this list after the reasons you listed. Great....now im going to have to start my PL's from scratch....drats |
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| + Pyrus | Jan 13 2013, 01:19 AM Post #4 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I was going to post that. How big was his surfacing? |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 01:24 AM Post #5 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It looked fairly large, but the problem is given the 18,000 Vegeta has, it won't look fairly large to the people who say that a gap as large as 4% is "unnoticeable" and to the people who say that 8-10% is still somewhat of a rivaling gap. Vegeta yells and the background changes to that creepy looking thing, storm clouds show up along with some complementary lightning. Rocks fly up and the air starts swirling around Vegeta like some kind of vortex. Vegeta launches himself at Goku, who proceeds to put on the infamous face.As for statements; Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P3.4, P4.2 Context: as Vegeta powers up Goku: “What ki!!! It’s as if the entire Earth is trembling!!!” Goku: “This is just like a typhoon…!!” Edited by Kyouks, Jan 13 2013, 01:28 AM.
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Jan 13 2013, 03:10 AM Post #6 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Well we still have that 11% gap with Dodoria vs Kyui (21/18), so it still puts the noticeable gap range comfortably around 11%. Still, that's a damn good point and a bit confusing. It points to: 16,000 < Vegeta (pre-powerup) <<< 18,000 Even though 18,000 shouldn't be that far above 16,000, unless ~113% is that big a gap? Actually, I'm going to look through the raw scans again and see how much of a upper-hand Vegeta had against Goku. I could lower him to 105% of Goku's power if possible... Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 03:13 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 03:17 AM Post #7 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Going by the scans, a 5-6% gap or so is fine, although that does make his power-upped self have a similar edge over his initial self. I just checked them not too long ago, a bit after I replied to KP. It's not that far apart, but Vegeta has the clear edge. Problem is, this definitely causes problems with the seemingly popular notion that 4% is an "unnoticeable" gap. I don't go by that stuff no more, haven't for quite a while. I believe it's rivaling, but not unnoticeable. Edited by Kyouks, Jan 13 2013, 03:17 AM.
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Jan 13 2013, 03:21 AM Post #8 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I guess I was kind of vague in the wording. It's noticeable if you're one of the fighters, I mean. So anyway, guess my memory fails me, Goku only fought Vegeta in KK x 2 for four pages. He surprises Vegeta with a few hits, then Vegeta gets serious and kicks him, Goku powers down. 105% gap is pretty plausible. Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 03:21 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 03:25 AM Post #9 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The weird issue for some is that the power-up gets pretty 'small'. Take the minimum for Goku, 16,000- Goku - 16,000 Vegeta - 16,800 Vegeta - 18,000 A 7% increase that shook the world...although you could entertain the fact that because Vegeta was more or less relaxed before powering up, his already high battle power just didn't affect the Earth since he didn't bother to display it similarly to how he displayed the 18,000 level. As for the second tier, where fighters can fight fairly evenly but there's a solid gap still, I wouldn't go higher than 7% for that. given the Vegeta/Zarbon chiz. Edited by Kyouks, Jan 13 2013, 03:26 AM.
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Jan 13 2013, 03:27 AM Post #10 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Yeah, this is the new PL inconsistency. We used to think Kyui/Dodoria/Vegeta was a tight fit, now look at this. What is implied by Toriyama though is: 16 000 to 17 500 < Vegeta (pre powerup) <<< 18 000 Abandon all gaps? EUREKA!: Vegeta's powering up having such a devastating effect on the landscape is a huge inconsistency since power levels get to millions of times his without the same effects, AND/OR, Vegeta was not as skilled as maintaining his power at this point in the series and he didn't even know that it was an adverse side effect instead of a mighty display of his power. So it can be discarded, or also explained that he was using some weird ki control to cause such mighty effects, and the shock wasn't so much the amount of his ki, but what he was doing with it
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 03:32 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 03:34 AM Post #11 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I don't think so. P and I went over this a few times on Shinden, but we never really came to a conclusion. I can try now though: Goku/Vegeta max is probably around 6%. Goku can fight back, but Vegeta's advantage is solid. Given that, the highest rivaling gap I'd be willing to use would be 4%. Then there's Vegeta making fun of Zarbon for looking so slow. That's somewhere in the 109-110% range. It's not stomping, as Vegeta is still using quite a bit of effort IMO, and Zarbon doesn't look too battered. This 109-110% gap could probably be used for Cell @ Goku over MSSJ Goku. Vegeta over KKx2 Goku is definitely solid, Goku can't win. 112%. Monster Zarbon owns Vegeta, but he doesn't seem to be playing around. Still quite a bit of effort, but it's more or less pretty humiliating for Vegeta. About 116-118%. Vegeta totally out-muscles Dodoria. About 120%. Vegeta's power "skyrocketed" from 24,000 to near 30,000. 120-125%. Recoome toys with Vegeta. 133%. Recoome can't see Goku move. 150%. It more or less works out, it's just quite different from what most usually to go by. EDIT: Lemme read your Euraka thing real quick... So the power-up is more or less discarded in terms of big power up power for later on in the series? I'm cool with that. EDIT 2: I still believe that the power up can be used for the lesser power ups we see, such as 2nd form Freeza's first power up. Edited by Kyouks, Jan 26 2013, 12:24 AM.
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Jan 13 2013, 03:37 AM Post #12 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Damn, the OP is going to get even more bulky with the third PL inconsistency I neglected to try and fit in: Zarbon < 24,000 << Monster Zarbon << 30,000 |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 03:45 AM Post #13 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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How about- Zarbon - 22,000 Vegeta - 24,000 Zarbon - 28,000 Vegeta - 30,000 ~7%. Solid advantage, foe can still fight back. When the fight starts, Vegeta dodges a hit fairly easily, but he's already relying on using the sand to his advantage. He does deal one hell of a blow that seems to do a lot of damage, but in this instance, he's got an aura flaring and seems to be putting every bit of his strength into it, which he didn't seem to do in his previous fight with normal Zarbon. He fires a volley of blasts, but when Zarbon emerges, he doesn't look too battered up (the state of his armor can be a bit deceiving), and Vegeta is looking pissed as he fires those blasts. After this, they have a slightly even scuffle in which Vegeta punches Zarbon in the gut and blows his load all over his insides. You could also use 27,500 for Zarbon, making Vegeta's 30,000 a ~9% advantage like against normal Zarbon. Edited by Kyouks, Jan 13 2013, 05:11 AM.
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Jan 13 2013, 03:55 AM Post #14 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I like that. Zarbon gives Vegeta trouble, much more than Dodoria. So Zarbon being 110% of Dodoria and Vegeta being 109% of Zarbon works well. Zarbon manhandles Vegeta at ~117% of him, so I have to make the tire/overwhelm gap a little smaller. Then Vegeta goes all-out and pulls a low-blow on Monster Zarbon, so I like it. Nice note there on the armor BTW, even after Vegeta blitzes him, Zarbon's back in entirely ruined armor but still ready to fight. I think it's just Vegeta's entirely straight to the point style of fighting that has him dispatch Zarbon like that. I'll get aronud to editing the OP. Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 04:00 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 13 2013, 04:02 AM Post #15 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I still feel like Vegeta over Monster Zarbon's a tad bit smaller than Vegeta over normal Zarbon. Perhaps 28,000 could be a bit high, maybe I could use 27,750 or some sh** like that, ~8% or so. Yeah, looking at it at face value, it might not make a lot of sense, but if you put it all together with every little thing it does. If I had to list mine, I'd do something like (not gonna bother with a table, lol): 100% = EQUALZ 101-102% = Almost unnoticeable (like Goku and Vegeta in the Androids arc) 101-104% = Rivaling (Goku/Freeza, which'd be 103-104%) 105-107% = Still could be even-ish, solid gap though; the weaker foe won't be damaged too tremendously by blows (Vegeta/Monster Zarbon; 2nd form Freeza power up 2/Weighted Piccolo as well, perhaps) 108-113% = Solid advantage for sure, still need effort though (Vegeta/Normal Zarbon, Cell/Goku) 115-118% = LOLPWN, but still need to go all-out and be serious (Monster Zarbon/Vegeta) 120%+ = Stomp (Vegeta/Dodoria) 133%+ = Toying gap (also cut them off uber fast; Vegeta/Cui, Recoome/Vegeta) 150%+ = Can't see (Goku/Recoome, Jeice, and Burter) K, let's do tanking gaps now. :P Edited by Kyouks, Apr 17 2013, 10:53 PM.
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